Interview with Trungram Gyaltrul Rinpoche

Rinpoche: Yes, it's very effective, very effective in various stages of practice for the purpose of enlightenment and also for people from all walks of life. It's very beneficial. The reason is that in fact our body and mind demand meditation.

Buddha said in at least several places, including the Vinaya that one type of nutrition we need in our life is meditation. Meditation in this case means a rest of mind. Just like the sunlight is necessary for our life, just like food is necessary to our life, and just like sleep is necessary to our life, so is meditation. These are the minimum requirements our body and mind demand. We are actually doing meditation - everybody, whether we know how to name it or not. We have some meditation just to survive or just to live. But we are not purposefully doing meditation.

So now you can imagine how good that can be if one is purposefully doing meditation, and putting effort into meditation. Purposeful meditation is part of the traditional practice and religious scriptures; but it is also found, now in modern times, in many universities including leading institutions like Harvard. They have seen the benefit of meditation for people who have a lot of stress, people who can not concentrate, and people who have to strengthen themselves spiritually. Universities know it's necessary, so they encourage and even offer mediation to students. When students come to a new environment, they have a lot of pressure and can not concentrate. They offer these programs for free. This shows that meditation is helping even outside of spiritual pursuit.

Now, if you talk about more intensive meditation, we can think about ten plus days mediation. Some Vipasana groups offer - I don't know exactly how many days - but over ten days, maybe eleven or twelve days meditation. The benefits can be seen immediately after these days. I know for many teenagers who have drug issues, for example, when medication or any other treatments aren't working that well, the parents send them to these kinds of meditation programs. It brings a lot of benefit to them; it changes the human being.

When talking about even longer meditation, many kinds of meditation in our case, it will bring a lot of benefits. Those benefits just mentioned are more in laymen's terms, like how our body demands it, and how universities are offering meditation to students, and how these benefit people in general. These are more mundane or laymen's terms. Now if you look at the effects of meditation within the deeper spiritual path, then people can notice, for example, most Tibetan teachers are in a way much happier than many other people, and that happiness has something to do with meditation. Even when they have a lot of hardship physically - they had to leave the country, they are in exile, their living conditions are not very good - they are still happy. In a way, they maintain that way all the time, even in the hardest times. They were able to maintain and that happiness, and that wasn't a forced happiness, but a result of spiritual practice. It has to do with understanding meditation, understanding Dharma. If you look at earlier times, you find Milarepa's life as an example of how intensive meditation brings lots of experience in spiritual development. If you go further back, then look at the Buddha. Even the Buddha gained enlightenment at the end of six years of intensive meditation. All these things show the effects of doing meditation.

Rinpoche: Meditation at a retreat center is very special. When we do meditation, there are many internal and external, or inner and outer obstacles. The outer obstacle is the first obstacle that we have to overcome. When you don't have a place like a retreat center, then you will have a lot of obstacles that will drag you away. The environment is very important. You have to find a suitable, favorable environment for meditation, plus good colleagues in practice, because every other person may become an example of practice, and there is encouragement from that. Then the teacher being next to you is another important advantage at the retreat center. So a retreat center is a source where one can get inspired to do further practice. One can receive the teachings, consult with teachers as needed, and one can meditate without going down the wrong track. With the teacher on the site, one can be prevented from falling into really dangerous paths. Also, just knowing that the place is a retreat center is a reminder for everyone that one is supposed to be in meditation, and everyone you see in the retreat place is an example of a practitioner. The place, the name, the people there - all these contribute to an individual's meditation effort.

Rinpoche: O.K. In laymen's terms, meditation helps us to live without distraction - that is the key word - but with focus. That kind of living without distraction but with focus will bring success. If we are talking about business, if the mind is very focused and very clear, it will bring success in whatever we are doing, and that success brings happiness.

That's the result of meditation, of course that's not the full result, but that's what people can understand immediately. And that focus will clear away all the fear because fear itself is distraction. For example if you have to give a lecture, most people have fear to some degree, even those who are very used to giving lectures still have fear. Usually the fear comes out because you are not focused on the subject you want to talk about. When you are distracted by surroundings and you are not focusing on the things you want to say or do, then fear comes.

So meditation is good for students or business people - anyone who wants to be successful in the things they are doing. Because they can not do without the mind. Mind needs clarity and focus free from all distractions. So meditation brings benefits to all people. That's from shamatha and vipashana, starting from shamatha.

Rinpoche: Humans have great potential, but are usually not using it all. We only use part of it, a very small part of it. We are only using minimum requirements for what is needed, and not using the rest, so there is no growth. With meditation, there will be great growth in human understanding and that will bring new vision. We can think of great founders of religions in the world. There are so many good teachings, and so many followers, and all those come from one single person. We shouldn't think that one person's achievement is minimal. One person can bring a lot of benefit to many. Meditation will give a chance to every individual to raise their potential to the maximum.

It's very different from regular education. Meditation looks inwards at one's own mind while in regular eductaion, when trying to understand the mind, the effort is pointed outwards - other people, other animals, other brains and so on - basically something outside yourself that has a shape and color. That does not provide a complete picture of the ability of the mind. But, with meditation, you can understand oneself and others; you can bring great joy, happiness, understand suffering and disturbances people have, so it will produce compassion in mind, and will give what's needed in human society, especially in our time.

Just intelligence is not enough. We need to have responsibility and care otherwise intelligence can be used in very destructive ways. When somebody produces an atomic bomb they use intelligence to make it. But that intelligence and knowledge can cause a lot of harm.

Therefore, just education is not enough. Education is a tool and it can be used for good or bad purposes. But meditation of this kind, which brings tenderness together with great wisdom, will actually help to guide intelligence and education as tools in a good way. And that's how it brings benefit to society.

Rinpoche: Many things are the same as other traditions since it is based on Buddha's teachings. But it also has its own special character because of the recent history of the Trungram Monastery and it's teachers, From the time of the Third Trungram Gayltrul Rinpoche in Tibet, the monastery and the teaching survived the cultural revolution and its aftermath very well. This was a time when most of the monasteries, even big monasteries originally with thousands of monks, were reduced to very few monks. Many monasteries were left with just novice monks and no senior monks with three year retreat experience. Those kind of monks - advanced practitioners and educators - were very few at the time.

But the Tungram Monatery had proportionally a lot of qualified teachers with three year retreat expience. And even now, every monk is trying to do the three year retreat - long term meditation. Sometimes even if you have a place for retreat, you may not have many people who do the retreat. But people at Trungram Monastery are lined up to get in. That itself shows during the Third Trungram Gyaltrul Rinpoche's time and even now, practice in the Trungram Tradition has a very high demand. That's why people line up.

Basically I would say, its character is "practice, practice and practice". It's a practice lineage, and it talks about practice in real life.

Another characteristic is its dedication to making the scriptures of the Buddha full of life. The text books are not living; they describe the benefits, but where do the benefits actually exist? The benefits appear in real humans - the practitioner. So only practitioners can prove that what is taught in sutra or tantra is true. The text can not prove it is true. Text books are dead if there are no practitioners. So it is practitioners that make the scriptures alive, and the teacher/student connection that propogates this. The particular character of the Trungram Tradition' is drawn from this reality: if we just learn from books, it's only a bunch of data but not real application.

Rinpoche: It doesn't reject that others have practice. But it is definitely a special quality of Trungram Tradition that it gives so much emphasis on this.

Rinpoche: Yes. And many of the teachings and methods are taught only at a particular time. What that means is that general teachings are there, and general teachings are for general purposes; but there are particular teachings for particular people and particular situations. So many teachings are tailored. That's why it's very effective to a person's heart and mind. It's a practice lineage, highly emphasized in practice in life, learning, making the scripture with life, learning things from a live teacher. That kind of expression is very important - not just transferring the data.

To summarize: It is special because it has special instructional teachings directly pointed to students at different levels. It's not only philosophical, but also psychological part of religion. We say psychological, but actually it's more of the heart. And Trungram tradition is really good in helping people through that way.

Rinpoche: The first thing I have to point out is the word "lost". They were never lost, because they never got it. You are assuming the other Kagyu lineages had the snyan brgyud teachings at some point, and now they don't. According to what we know, it's quite certain that the Trungram Tradition is the only tradition, and the Trungram Monastery the only monastery which has ever had the tradition of snyan brgyud retreats. Or in a way, in the Karma Kagyu School, aside from the Trungram Tradition, there is no other established practice in which snyan brgyud is taught in retreat. It doesn't reject that some people receive oral transmission of snyan brgyud teachings.

Surmang Monastery also has some snyan brgyud teachings, but it is different in the length of time at retreat and the type of practice. And Surmang is not really Karma Kagyu; it's another small group.

Trungram is based in Karma Kagyu. In Trungram, when people finish retreat, they would have finished 6 years of retreat - the first 3 years Naropa retreat and the second 3 years snyan brgyud retreat, whereas in the Surmang tradition, they only spend 4 years in retreat. snyan brgyud is a very special tradition of Trungram. First of all, you don't find such snyan brgyud in other Karma Kagyu traditions. Secondly, though there is snyan brgyud at Surmang, there is a difference in how it is practiced.

Rinpoche: Yes, that's why it's called snyan brgyud, very well kept, very profound.

Rinpoche: Not even Gampopa, right. Maybe he had a very simple one. It existed during Tilopa and Naropa's time. Tilopa predicted that it would stay for 13 generations with teacher student transmission in a single line (chig brgyud), which means a teacher can teach only one person. And after that, the system of passing it down would change. That was because the conditions for passing it down to a third person was not yet ripe. So it had to be transmitted this way.

Just as he said, snyan brgyud teaching was maintained in this way until the time of the 5th Karmapa. From the Fifth Karmapa it also went to Surmang where it continued to be maintained among some Rinpoches. But the practice for students was never established until the time of the last Surmang - Trungpa Rinpoche, the Trungpa Rinpoche before the one who came to the west in the 1960s. Until the 3rd Trungram Gyaltrul Rinpoche's time in the 20th century, it was practiced among the teachers, but never by students. In a way, teachers just practiced to maintain the lineage. During the 3rd Trungram Gyaltrul Rinpoche's time, however, it was established for really good students who had finished the Naropa retreat. From that time on, it has been available for selective and qualified practitioners.

Rinpoche: We tend to think we are modern, but actually no matter the era, people always think they are in the modern times. So maybe Milarepa and Marpa were thinking they were modern. And now we are modern. After maybe 500 hundred or thousands of years, people may think we were in really old times, and they are modern. When it was during their time in the past, they thought they were modern and used modern ways like writing which was new for them.

It is not that there is no single text about snyan brgyud. There are many texts about snyan brgyud, but they are all about recitations and chantings. The key instructions are never written. That's why snyan brgyud is called "orally transmitted". What is allowed to be recorded has already been recorded in writing, but that's not enough. It is almost equal to not having written anything. The reason is that the teacher has to find a receptacle - a qualified student who will keep it well and help others, and keep it away from people who cannot benefit others. If you write the actual instructions, it can not guarantee that it will not go into the hands of those who would misuse it. Once it's recorded, it is public and open. We cannot do it, and in the same way they could not do it. This is like saying "keep out of reach of children" on a medicine bottle. That's what's exactly happening here. Keep snyan brgyud teachings out of the reach of spiritual children - we are like children in the spiritual world.

Rinpoche: Yes, that is why they get the teachings. If you give it to the public, to all kinds of people, then it's natural to come up with the questions like whether people would forget, dilute the teachings or lose part of the teachings. But not in this case. That's why it's so strict and kept so well. They choose a kind of student who will put their full time on this. This is the most important thing - practice oneself. When you practice all the time, it's part of you, there is no question of losing it. The fault of forgetting or losing part of it from memory only happens to those who spend little time on practice and have so many worldly things to worry about. So first you haven't spent much time on it and come back to it every now and then, of course you will forget it. But here we are talking about qualified students who keep such secret teachings. They will never have chances to lose it.

Rinpoche: We expect the Mahamudra Hermitage to become the global base for two things: First, the global base for preserving the Trungram Tradition and its teachings for all the students in the world; second, a global source for the promotiion of a new wave of the teachings of the Buddha, or new flowering of Buddha's teachings in every corner of the world starting from this 21st century. That is more of promotion, or propagation. So when I talk about preservation, I am talking about a place where all the students can come back to that center and go out from that center.

Rinpoche: There are many reasons. After careful consideration, I selected this place. I can actually share some of them here, and for some of them, we can see in the future.

For example, this place is cold in the winter as it is in Tibet, which is traditionally sought for some of the yoga practices, to test the practice. Yet unlike Tibet, especially now, it is easily accessible for all the students around the world. That's two things combined: It has a quality like Tibet for practice, but it is very accessible, not like Tibet. On top of that, it has all the things required for an ideal meditation place - a favorable environment, which means that it is safe, clean, quiet, with friendly neighbors, and all the provisions are rich; and there is the sense of spiritual growth when you get there. These are the qualities one needs for what we call favorable a environment for meditation.

Rinpoche: Environment changes. In modern times we talk about ozone; we also talk about how weather changed in the last 100 years. It became hotter, not cooler. So India may not have been like what we have now. Also, when we talk about India, especially from the Sutrayana point of view, we mainly talk about the basin near the river Ganges. That's the hottest part of India. Tantric practices usually talk about 20 some Tantric places which are usually in the peripherals of the Indian subcontinent, such as Nepal, not necessarily in the middle, Some of those in India included Mount Kailash, Himavat - the Himalayans, and Oddiyana which was north of Pakistan and Afghanistan. It's very cold there. Ancient India was greater than it is now, including Pakistan, Afghanistan and so on. So we cannot judge from now. Ancient India and modern India are very different.

Rinpoche: Right now I am physically OK to travel. So I will travel as much as I can to various places to visit disciples. But after some time, if I live longer, then it's hard to tell if I'll be able to travel or not, so I may need a place where I can just live and teach and let students come. Instead of me travelling, they will need to travel sooner or later. In the case of my last three incarnations, they already had a place, so they didn't have to build again. But between the Third and now there has been a big change. Everything was destroyed. I haven't started anything because I have been studying in the monasteries, institutes and Harvard. This is the first year after my formal education is finished, so I have to do something.

Tibet is impossible. Nepal is not safe. I don't see a good source on the global level, for many reasons. I think many students would utilize the new place. And more and more they will utilize it. We will offer programs for students from around the world, give teachings and arrange programs, a lot of things. Because all the environmental factors are good, it happens to fall on New York, or U.S. It's not a New York or US retreat. It's for everyone from everywhere.

Rinpoche: We have a traditional way of saying - "thos bsam sgom". thos pa means hearing, or listening, bsam pa means contemplation, and sgom pa means practice or meditation. So those are the three things we do for spiritual practice.

Following the traditional stages of practice, we will offer teachings on how to do meditation. So people will listen or hear teachings in order to understand the 'how to do meditation', especially for the beginners. Then we will have Shinay (shamatha) teachings in which we will teach people to do nyin thun which means day practice, something they can learn and go back to do at home on a daily bases. They get the teaching and go back home. They will be working as usual, but they will have something to do during the day.

Then we will teach bdun thun which means week long retreat.

We will also offer some yoga - good for meditation, and seminars so they will have better knowledge about the teachings - the whole system. The seminars may be combined with zla thun which means month long retreat. That seminar and month long retreat especially at a later stage will be incorporated together. Seminars will include those on general teachings like Hinayana, Mahayana and Vajrayana - different seminars together with the month long retreats. Through all these teachings and practice, mindfulness will be the main focus.

After that there will be programs for outer foundations and inner foundations, and the focus will be awareness. And there will be courses on Mahamudra. What I have just said about the programs we offer will be in the Milarepa Retreat Center.

In the Naropa Retreat Center there will be some extra things, more intensive courses, for example. There will be a lot of courses on Mahamudra.

Rinpoche: Now we are talking about three year retreats. Usually, when you do meditation you work with your mind. In the three year retreat, you work with mind by using your body - you work with body to understand mind. Body mainly means in Tibetan "rtsa rlung thigle" - channels and vital energy, and the essence of the body. The ideal result will be that practitioners transform impure mundane "rtsa rlung thigle" into pure "rtsa rlung thigle". By transforming them, they will understand, realize the nature of mind. That brings enlightenment. That's the ideal result.

An average result for a practitioner may not by fully transformative but would certainly lead to greater control of their "rtsa rlung" or body. Because they gain some control, they are less disturbed by inner or outer negativities, and more able to maintain their own happiness and clarity of mind. That's the average, good foundation for further progress.

Rinpoche: Actually it gives two kinds of help - helping oneself, and over all helping the humanity and all sentient beings. From the Buddhist point of view you are supporting the maintenance and longevity of the precious teachings. As Shantideva said, the teachings are the single medicine for all the illnesses of samsara. So you are doing a great thing.

What the only medicine means is two things: One is listening and studying the scriptures, studying and contemplating - those are the first part of what I call the medicine. And the second part is realization. In Tibet we call the first one "lung", and the second is "rtogs". rtogs means realization. The cause of realization is meditation. A meditator, especially as a learner, needs a suitable environment - just like saving water because we need to go to the desert. We really need a good container to save the water, otherwise it will dry immediately. That container is the retreat place, the hermitage. If you want to save that medicine, you need a container.

Now you can imagine the merit and benefits one can get by knowing its significance. To state more clearly, we can find in many Dharma scriptures where it says that there are a few more serious or sensitive objects. Those are: the objects of quality, the objects of loving kindness, and the objects of compassion. Objects of quality means Buddha, Dharma and Sangha; objects of loving kindness means one's parents who help you, who are very kind; objects of compassion means poor people who have no protection and so on. The rest is ordinary people. If you give one thing to poor people, it is greater than giving it to ordinary people. If you give the same thing to help your parents who are in need, it's even greater. Now if you give the same thing to the Triple Gems, the merit is many times greater. This is because when you give to a poor person you give to one person; when you give to your parents, it is returning the kindness which is connected to you; when you help the Triple Gems, you are actually helping all sentient beings, not just one. That's why it's many times greater.

Now within the Triple Gems, in some scriptures we find that if you support a monk studying, it is very great, but if you support a meditator in a forest (in the old times they talked about forest, now we talk about hermitage) then it is many times greater. Helping a full-time meditator at a Hermitage is greater than helping a monk studying.

We're talking about a hermitage. So it's very meaningful to help them realize the truth and thereby one can help to maintain the only medicine for all the sufferings of the world. From that hermitage, I am quite sure that there will be great meditators who will share their teachings with many others, and that's why I call it a new wave of Buddha's teachings in the modern 21st century.

Helping others is always better than helping oneself. Shantideva said that, because Buddha Shakyamuni always thinks about helping others, he attained enlightenment. We the childish are mostly thinking to help ourselves so we are still not enlightened. That is why helping others is helping oneself in a very skillful way. It brings two benefits out of doing one thing, on many levels. To many people, they think a monastery brings great merit, and they can not connect to the merit of helping a retreat center. In reality, as you can see, a monk studying is great, but a meditator at a hermitage is greater. You can know that this kind of help is greater than just building a temple.

Rinpoche: Last time on my birthday, I sent a letter, and once again in the same way I would like to ask everyone to do their best, because we won't build this kind of hermitage all the time. It will be monumental for everyone. I would encourage and ask everyone connected with me to do their best to make this happen.